Comments on: Seeing Through the Shininess – The Heart of True Analysis http://teamcovenant.com/09/02/2009/seeing-through-the-shininess-the-heart-of-true-analysis/ A True Community of Gamers Thu, 09 Sep 2010 20:18:03 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Galactus http://teamcovenant.com/09/02/2009/seeing-through-the-shininess-the-heart-of-true-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-792 Galactus Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:48:19 +0000 http://teamcovenant.com/?p=2183#comment-792 Like I said, the monster was Pteradax and it's hard to do much else when he has flying. Like I said, the monster was Pteradax and it’s hard to do much else when he has flying.

]]> By: Andrew http://teamcovenant.com/09/02/2009/seeing-through-the-shininess-the-heart-of-true-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-789 Andrew Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:18:46 +0000 http://teamcovenant.com/?p=2183#comment-789 Galactus, the question is: Why in the world were you trying to attack a monster with a Chtulabite? Even with supporting Flank, the Cthulabite is a support/denial unit, not an offensive power. It sits near clusters of enemy units to deny them boost dice with distract, and if they're low defense units, maybe it'll blast with Multi-shot to take some of them out/gain P-dice. It has no business attacking a monster straight up. That's like trying to attack a monster with an Interceptor. Sure, you want the Cthulabite near the enemy monster for Weaken, but not as an attack unit. Galactus, the question is: Why in the world were you trying to attack a monster with a Chtulabite? Even with supporting Flank, the Cthulabite is a support/denial unit, not an offensive power. It sits near clusters of enemy units to deny them boost dice with distract, and if they’re low defense units, maybe it’ll blast with Multi-shot to take some of them out/gain P-dice. It has no business attacking a monster straight up. That’s like trying to attack a monster with an Interceptor.

Sure, you want the Cthulabite near the enemy monster for Weaken, but not as an attack unit.

]]> By: ChiVenger http://teamcovenant.com/09/02/2009/seeing-through-the-shininess-the-heart-of-true-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-787 ChiVenger Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:39:02 +0000 http://teamcovenant.com/?p=2183#comment-787 Oh, and I'm a big fan of the PE. Would love to see them more effective. Oh, and I’m a big fan of the PE. Would love to see them more effective.

]]> By: ChiVenger http://teamcovenant.com/09/02/2009/seeing-through-the-shininess-the-heart-of-true-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-786 ChiVenger Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:37:58 +0000 http://teamcovenant.com/?p=2183#comment-786 Steven, A very good article. And the conversation has been thought provoking. As for the PE yes, they would be better if they could "zerg" in ridiculous numbers all over the map and swarm. Maybe they were supposed to get the Tower of Corruption. THAT would have created a Synergy we could all get behind. And some units with Manufacture. That would have helped generate the swarm that would have warmed the internal organs of every Planet Eater player. But they didn't. Doesn't change the reasoning that the PE don't get it done. Can they win? Sure. Do they win regularly? Nope. Why not? To use the vernacular, too "shiny." Too many woulda, coulda, shoulda. Steven,

A very good article. And the conversation has been thought provoking. As for the PE yes, they would be better if they could “zerg” in ridiculous numbers all over the map and swarm. Maybe they were supposed to get the Tower of Corruption. THAT would have created a Synergy we could all get behind. And some units with Manufacture. That would have helped generate the swarm that would have warmed the internal organs of every Planet Eater player. But they didn’t. Doesn’t change the reasoning that the PE don’t get it done. Can they win? Sure. Do they win regularly? Nope. Why not? To use the vernacular, too “shiny.” Too many woulda, coulda, shoulda.

]]> By: Galactus http://teamcovenant.com/09/02/2009/seeing-through-the-shininess-the-heart-of-true-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-784 Galactus Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:09:23 +0000 http://teamcovenant.com/?p=2183#comment-784 I very much enjoyed the all too accurate segment that Steven wrote about the experience a person gains when performing a function that they’ve done for a long period of time. The same has certainly been true for me for a long time now in relation to MonPoc. Ken can vouch for this, but I remember the first time I read the stats and abilities of MPD (Mega Pteradax) I was instantly crying “NERF!!!”. Sadly, I was all too correct in my assessment of that particular figure, though perhaps not so much so as has been proven to me in game after game of playing against it and losing time after time. All the same, I have a sound ability to simply read about a unit on paper and see right then how it will play in the game and whether it will be effective or not. I do not say any of this because I wish to present myself as the final authority on the matter (which I am) but rather to explain the means by which I feel that I am able to judge the value of any given figure or theory by objective and reasonable means. There are some types of armies/monsters/units that will simply function well regardless of the situation they are put in. This is typically going to be because they possess the “tool box”, a term I barrow from my friend and playing partner Ken. This means that they have the means to do what needs doing in a manner that is not only effective but efficient. First in this pantheon are the Terrasaurs. Need long range blaster to clear out packs of units? They have it. Need a unit to take out buildings with greater ease? They have it. Need a unit to augment the mobility of your army and disrupt the potential of your opponent’s? They have it. Just set it and? FORGET IT! Not only do the Terrasaurs have all of these things that do a tremendous job at their specific tasks but they also work well doing the two things that are the most important in MonPoc: Damaging Monsters and Killing Units. While not as stellar in the “tool box” department as the Terrasaurs, SSS and GUARD also perform admirably where it counts in the last two areas. Yes, they have too things that are solid abilities and capabilities but Terrasaurs reign on high; lead by a mighty winged behemoth soaring with terrible purpose in the lofty firmament, awaiting the moment that it chooses to dispatch its feckless opposition with a deft tow and resounding bodyslam…. Let it be duly noted that I do not play Terrasaurs, nor do I find them appealing in any way other than by virtue of their outright effectiveness. That effectiveness stems from their ability, as well as that of SSS and GUARD to no lesser extent, to form small but lethal fire-teams that have a high probability of dealing damage to a monster with 2-3 units in a blast attack. No matter how cool I think my new Cthulabums are with their high DEF, Weaken, Multishot goodness, they are exceedingly poor at tangoing with monsters. They have no boost die whatsoever, and even with the benefit weaken functioning in a manner that far exceeds the use of a boost die, but what we’re looking at a critical shortcoming: they suck A-die like it’s going out of style. This is a huge shortcoming and perhaps the greatest one when we look at a unit like Cthulabum. All of his abilities are awesome: They synergize well and offer a goodly amount of support to everything else that Cthul likes to do these days. But, if I want to attack a monster with them they’re going to suck down my A-die like Kirstie Alley in front of a plate of fettuccini. Take for example an attack I performed with 2 Cthulabums, a Corruptor providing flank support against Ken’s MPD. Weaken and Flank bring MPD’s DEF down to 5 and my Mega Yasheth grants a B-die to each of my Cthulabum brawlers. To make this attack have any chance of hitting even that modest 5 DEF I needed to roll the maximum 6 A-die with the +2 B-die. And guess how many strikes I got? 6. Pretty much right on the nose of the statistical probability. What’s more is that I also had to get the Bums into position, there’s another 2 A-die. I also had to deploy one of them, there’s another 2. 6+2+2 = 10. Yes I got a point of damage in, but it cost me a lot. This would have all been a lot easier had I had the benefit of attacking a non-flying monster, but even so, Cthul is a tedious faction when it comes to damaging a monster with units. As I said in a previous line of discussion though, economy is only part of the picture, and it’s always going to take a back seat to the pure tactics used on the map to overcome your opponent. As much as I wish I could sculpt a force that was singularly viable against all opponents without having to resort to using PP to slash out a Pteradactix the game continues to prove that with the exception of MPD, it’s a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, or whatever order of naming you know that same game by. I very much enjoyed the all too accurate segment that Steven wrote about the experience a person gains when performing a function that they’ve done for a long period of time. The same has certainly been true for me for a long time now in relation to MonPoc. Ken can vouch for this, but I remember the first time I read the stats and abilities of MPD (Mega Pteradax) I was instantly crying “NERF!!!”. Sadly, I was all too correct in my assessment of that particular figure, though perhaps not so much so as has been proven to me in game after game of playing against it and losing time after time. All the same, I have a sound ability to simply read about a unit on paper and see right then how it will play in the game and whether it will be effective or not. I do not say any of this because I wish to present myself as the final authority on the matter (which I am) but rather to explain the means by which I feel that I am able to judge the value of any given figure or theory by objective and reasonable means.
There are some types of armies/monsters/units that will simply function well regardless of the situation they are put in. This is typically going to be because they possess the “tool box”, a term I barrow from my friend and playing partner Ken. This means that they have the means to do what needs doing in a manner that is not only effective but efficient. First in this pantheon are the Terrasaurs. Need long range blaster to clear out packs of units? They have it. Need a unit to take out buildings with greater ease? They have it. Need a unit to augment the mobility of your army and disrupt the potential of your opponent’s? They have it. Just set it and? FORGET IT! Not only do the Terrasaurs have all of these things that do a tremendous job at their specific tasks but they also work well doing the two things that are the most important in MonPoc: Damaging Monsters and Killing Units. While not as stellar in the “tool box” department as the Terrasaurs, SSS and GUARD also perform admirably where it counts in the last two areas. Yes, they have too things that are solid abilities and capabilities but Terrasaurs reign on high; lead by a mighty winged behemoth soaring with terrible purpose in the lofty firmament, awaiting the moment that it chooses to dispatch its feckless opposition with a deft tow and resounding bodyslam…. Let it be duly noted that I do not play Terrasaurs, nor do I find them appealing in any way other than by virtue of their outright effectiveness.
That effectiveness stems from their ability, as well as that of SSS and GUARD to no lesser extent, to form small but lethal fire-teams that have a high probability of dealing damage to a monster with 2-3 units in a blast attack. No matter how cool I think my new Cthulabums are with their high DEF, Weaken, Multishot goodness, they are exceedingly poor at tangoing with monsters. They have no boost die whatsoever, and even with the benefit weaken functioning in a manner that far exceeds the use of a boost die, but what we’re looking at a critical shortcoming: they suck A-die like it’s going out of style. This is a huge shortcoming and perhaps the greatest one when we look at a unit like Cthulabum. All of his abilities are awesome: They synergize well and offer a goodly amount of support to everything else that Cthul likes to do these days. But, if I want to attack a monster with them they’re going to suck down my A-die like Kirstie Alley in front of a plate of fettuccini. Take for example an attack I performed with 2 Cthulabums, a Corruptor providing flank support against Ken’s MPD. Weaken and Flank bring MPD’s DEF down to 5 and my Mega Yasheth grants a B-die to each of my Cthulabum brawlers. To make this attack have any chance of hitting even that modest 5 DEF I needed to roll the maximum 6 A-die with the +2 B-die. And guess how many strikes I got? 6. Pretty much right on the nose of the statistical probability. What’s more is that I also had to get the Bums into position, there’s another 2 A-die. I also had to deploy one of them, there’s another 2. 6+2+2 = 10. Yes I got a point of damage in, but it cost me a lot. This would have all been a lot easier had I had the benefit of attacking a non-flying monster, but even so, Cthul is a tedious faction when it comes to damaging a monster with units.
As I said in a previous line of discussion though, economy is only part of the picture, and it’s always going to take a back seat to the pure tactics used on the map to overcome your opponent. As much as I wish I could sculpt a force that was singularly viable against all opponents without having to resort to using PP to slash out a Pteradactix the game continues to prove that with the exception of MPD, it’s a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, or whatever order of naming you know that same game by.

]]> By: Andrew http://teamcovenant.com/09/02/2009/seeing-through-the-shininess-the-heart-of-true-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-782 Andrew Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:54:25 +0000 http://teamcovenant.com/?p=2183#comment-782 Steven, give it a shot, and it'll probably take a few games just to get the "feel" for what you should be doing. Heck, kill two birds with one stone and take Vorgax to get a feel for the morpher. That -2 Defense, evergy cycle and Super Damage with 4 morphers brawling can put a hurt on a lot of things in a short window. The morphers will already get Flank from Chompapillar, and Barreller can bring in the Crawler for weaken, so the only challenge remaining is to get a Chomper nearby. Or, preferably, get the enemy monster near the Crawler, and summon the Chomper. It's essentially a small variant of the Osheroth/Cthulabite/Elite Corrupter combo, but without the 2 square reach or the need for the opponent to have 6+ P-dice. An 8 damage monster turn is not entirely out of the question, though. Steven, give it a shot, and it’ll probably take a few games just to get the “feel” for what you should be doing.

Heck, kill two birds with one stone and take Vorgax to get a feel for the morpher. That -2 Defense, evergy cycle and Super Damage with 4 morphers brawling can put a hurt on a lot of things in a short window. The morphers will already get Flank from Chompapillar, and Barreller can bring in the Crawler for weaken, so the only challenge remaining is to get a Chomper nearby. Or, preferably, get the enemy monster near the Crawler, and summon the Chomper.

It’s essentially a small variant of the Osheroth/Cthulabite/Elite Corrupter combo, but without the 2 square reach or the need for the opponent to have 6+ P-dice. An 8 damage monster turn is not entirely out of the question, though.

]]> By: Philip http://teamcovenant.com/09/02/2009/seeing-through-the-shininess-the-heart-of-true-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-781 Philip Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:35:00 +0000 http://teamcovenant.com/?p=2183#comment-781 Something that occurs to me. Wasn't Jarimy (who finished 5th at Masters) running Mega Gorghadra in order to get into the top-8 in the first place? And running Mega Gorghy against players with SS, MZM, and other such beasts? I'd be curious to see that army's list and know what he was matched against. Something that occurs to me. Wasn’t Jarimy (who finished 5th at Masters) running Mega Gorghadra in order to get into the top-8 in the first place? And running Mega Gorghy against players with SS, MZM, and other such beasts?

I’d be curious to see that army’s list and know what he was matched against.

]]> By: Galactus http://teamcovenant.com/09/02/2009/seeing-through-the-shininess-the-heart-of-true-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-780 Galactus Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:06:07 +0000 http://teamcovenant.com/?p=2183#comment-780 While I see where Andrew is coming from I think that the dynamics of MonPoc are too simplistic to offer an army like PE or Cthul the means to do what they can do as well as they otherwise could. The fact that this game "ignores" principles like Line-of-Sight, among other things, shapes the game far too much in favor of the fire-team strategies that are exemplified by an army like SSS. Reach is still King.... So much so that it is easy to find oneself shaping the play of an army that isn't quite designed for that kind of fighting to function as one that is. It's reminiscent of all the other times in history where one nation tried to bring it's military up to date by modeling it after that other nation's military that defeated theirs in the past. To say in brief: Reaching fire-teams will continue to inherently shape tactics on the battlefield until such time as new abilities or elements are brought into play that mitigate their de facto supremacy. While I see where Andrew is coming from I think that the dynamics of MonPoc are too simplistic to offer an army like PE or Cthul the means to do what they can do as well as they otherwise could.

The fact that this game “ignores” principles like Line-of-Sight, among other things, shapes the game far too much in favor of the fire-team strategies that are exemplified by an army like SSS. Reach is still King…. So much so that it is easy to find oneself shaping the play of an army that isn’t quite designed for that kind of fighting to function as one that is. It’s reminiscent of all the other times in history where one nation tried to bring it’s military up to date by modeling it after that other nation’s military that defeated theirs in the past.

To say in brief: Reaching fire-teams will continue to inherently shape tactics on the battlefield until such time as new abilities or elements are brought into play that mitigate their de facto supremacy.

]]> By: botounami http://teamcovenant.com/09/02/2009/seeing-through-the-shininess-the-heart-of-true-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-779 botounami Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:05:34 +0000 http://teamcovenant.com/?p=2183#comment-779 There will be a surprise on Team Covenant at 10:00 AM tomorrow, Phil. Because I care about you as a human being. There will be a surprise on Team Covenant at 10:00 AM tomorrow, Phil.

Because I care about you as a human being.

]]> By: Philip http://teamcovenant.com/09/02/2009/seeing-through-the-shininess-the-heart-of-true-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-778 Philip Thu, 03 Sep 2009 04:39:01 +0000 http://teamcovenant.com/?p=2183#comment-778 It is. You should be expecting to receive my medical bills in the near future, Jason. Tell the fiancee it's a business expense. Meanwhile, I'm going to revolt and play Deimos-9 instead of Gorghy just to keep my mind off it. It is. You should be expecting to receive my medical bills in the near future, Jason. Tell the fiancee it’s a business expense. Meanwhile, I’m going to revolt and play Deimos-9 instead of Gorghy just to keep my mind off it.

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