By Cory J– March 18, 2014
Some nice paint jobs!
Players at our store currently are drooling and flipping out.
So rebels will now have 2 ways to get EPTs on their ships, I hope we see some exciting Imperial version of that. I’m sitting here opening my Imperial Aces pack and I’m having some envy.
I’m already making all sorts of Rebel lists in my head.
Oh and for those who can’t tell the b-wing title will give it a pilot skill slot for those 2 unique pilots.
No it doesn’t. The B-Wing title adds a crew slot…..so you can actually use the Kyle Katarn and Jan Ors (Crew) cards included.
yup thats what I meant… guess I didn’t proof read.
Chaardan Refit. YES PLEASE.
I was right there with you, man. I loved the idea of plugging the missile slot with an upgrade, but I think adding the systems upgrade rather than an on-the-nose point reduction made more sense. But so be it (Jedi).
Without it, Arvel is utterly worthless. I’m not against the idea of not having any Chaardan Refit, but I am all for helping A-Wings be more cost effective and there’s not a million ways to make the existing named A-Wings worth it for the first time.
I hoped Arvel could have access to Enhanced Scopes, but man, B-Wings are helped. Did they really need it?
Missiles on the A-wing really got the short end of the stick. Homing missiles essentially cost 7 points now. I don’t think they were too cheap before.
I am also against negative costing in X-wing for pretty much the same reasons as Doug. I think it’s an odd choice given the direction that they went with Imperial Aces. Why not have a re-adjusted cost generic PS5 or 6 A-wing, like the Royal Guards?
Prototype veteran is another card that surprises me. I feel like they are closing off design space by allowing a ship to have 2 EPTs. Now they might have to reject an EPT because there is a broken combo with another EPT.
I don’t think it bothers me too much, as long as it doesn’t end up being overused.
If we assume that the upgrade slots have value, and that different types of slots have different values, then this is basically no different than cards like R2-D6 that, for some cost, turn one type of slot into another.
In this case, the Chaadran turns both your Modification and Missile slots into nothing. If the A-wing had no missile slot, would 1 point to add one be worth it? If there is a “Missile Tubes” mod at some point that costs 1 to add a missile icon, would that be worth it on an Interceptor?
I agree that just blind de-costing is bad, but if we’re OK with the idea of spending points to add new upgrade options, why not getting a few back when you give them up?
I agree with you Doug. I see ridiculous combos either way but I can’t get over the upgrades that now cost one or nothing.
Doug, if you agree with the premise that the A-Wing costs 2 points more than they are worth, how can you go about addressing this?
Either you re-cost the ship and print new cards, or add a card like Chardaan Retrofit.
Personally I think the A-wings cost too much at their current price point. Chardaan Retrofit addresses this well. I get what you are saying but, if they are consulting you on game design, you can keep them honest. So far the game doesn’t seem broken to me.
Maybe they will release another A-Wing Aces box in a year or so and implement your idea. An Rz-1 system slot card for cost “0″ sounds great if that means advanced sensor Arvel. Why can’t there be both your idea and the Chardaan Retrofit in the future?
Actually, I believe it was Crooked Wookie that suggested that.
Ok I see what you’re saying and that does make sense.
Hopefully they don’t give in to people complaining and make lots of these cards to throw game balance out of whack.
But if they are consulting you as a world champion, then they have the right approach as the best people to ask about game design are those that excel at the game. If you’re in the loop I’m sure they value your opinion.
Personally, I do believe the premise that the A-Wing is over priced by 1-2 points. People make mistakes, what are you going to do? Many of the top tourney players here in Toronto (we have a small but dedicated group of regulars) think the same thing.
I would have liked to see a card giving A-Wings the barrel roll. Keeps cost the same, but adds a dimension to the ship. But that’s just me.
I hope the slippery slope you talk about stops with the Tie Advanced. Yours might be the only voice as you say, but I’m sure FFG aren’t dummies and understand that your insights into the game carry a lot of weight.
So far the game isn’t broken. Just try to keep them honest and don’t let them make a lot of these cards!
Those complaints already exist very widely. I think this will just mean the a-wing will see more play which I think is a good thing.
If we see something like this for the Tie/Adv in the future I will be happy, otherwise I don’t think any other whip needs it. And honestly I would be fine if the advanced didn’t get one and got something else instead.
One of the issues I have with this implementation of a negative cost card is what Jason brought up, it effectively makes missiles on an A-wing cost 2 more. This makes them rather bad missile carriers and takes away one of the roles A-wings could play in a squad. I’m not even sure I think A-wings are overpriced, but I think there are better ways to improve them if you thought that was the case. I believe it was Doug who suggested a modification that would increase a ship’s primary attack value with certain restrictions. I see no reason an A-wing only mod like that could improve the playability of A-wings.
I think if you are going to implement a negative point card, it should do something. Removing a missile slot from a Prototype that was never going to use a missile is a flat out discount. Why not just remove Target Lock from the action bar? At least that could actually make a difference to the A-wing.
The advanced definitely needs something, but I’m not sure what. An extra dice at range one would really make Vader the “best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior..”
Well actually come to think of it, the Falcon could use a point reduction if we remove a crew slot. Han + Engine would be easier to fit into lists and be more fluffy.
Academies are good, but they are noobs at flying, right? If we remove the barrel roll option from them, maybe we can shave a couple points and get bigger swarms.
Kidding! (except for Vader, that would be cool)
If you accept the assumption that the A-wing is overcosted and you want to address that, then swapping out the missile slot for an advanced sensors slot doesn’t really address the costing issue you set out to fix.
Personally, I ran a few games with a systems slot A-wing after seeing the suggestions on the forums, and being able to daredevil then pull a 5 green is just awesome fun. I hope we’ll see the systems slot further down the road – but I wonder if a system on an a-wing that can take dual EPT’s might have imbalanced combos.
“If you accept the assumption that the A-wing is overcosted and you want to address that, then swapping out the missile slot for an advanced sensors slot doesn’t really address the costing issue you set out to fix.”
On its OWN, no, it doesn’t. But as I said below, if you make the cost reduction Refit card a modification, you get the best of both worlds – missiles if you want them, and a cheaper ship to address the cost issue.
Pair that with a MkII card that – very thematically – offers the option to replace the missile bay with enhanced scopes, advanced sensors, fire control systems, whatever, and then you do have the fix. Because the reduced cost is there regardless, and now you have a tactical choice between upgrading your systems or piling in more firepower, while saving a couple of points either way.
Maybe that would have been TOO good, I don’t know, but I think it would have been a bit more elegant.
There’s a Kyle Katarn Crew
My guess: “After you remove (?) a stress token from your ship, you may …. ??”
“…you may place a focus token on… [a friendly ship within Range 1-3]” is my read of it.
Would make sense, given the almost godly control of stress that the Rebels seem to be getting these days. It also parallels Kyle’s previous ability.
Shedding stress at will? Not good enough! Grant more freebie tokens to everyone in the process! *sigh*
Lando YT with Nien Numb & Kyle. Going straight forward will be an amazing buff.
AABBB can now upgrade 2 of the Bs to daggers or take 2 FCS.
I’m so excited for this.
A-Wings are fixed!!!
They can now barrel roll and PTL and become the true interceptors they are meant to be in the fluff.
FFG just keeps impressing me with how they tweak and develop this game.
Thank You FFG!
So is the B-wing title giving a EPT without restriction? Doesn’t look like much text on there like the prototype veteran card.
Like I said above its giving a co-pilot slot.
Nien Nunb on a B-Wing
HLC + Merc Copilot on a B-Wing
5x Prototype Pilots + Chaardan Refit
1x Biggs Darklighter
My first thought was
5 Green Squadron with PtL
Wow a negative Squad Point card. Didn’t see that one coming. That is interesting. Even if its A-wing only.
It also makes me wonder what they may do for the Advanced later on.
All 5 new cards are added to the work-in-progress 5.0.2 vassal x-wing module
While the A-Wing stuff looks great, I’m a little puzzled why the B-Wing is getting more options. That thing is already a beast.
I know right? I wish it had been the y-wing or a second a-wing.
The Y-wing is definitely the most logical pairing for the A-wing–it’s a decidedly unsexy workhorse, and I really only ever see Dutch + Ions or Gold + Ions.
Maybe they held it back for a particular reason?
No idea – I would’ve thought Y-wing myself. I can’t recall, but weren’t the A and B wings meant to be paired in the fluff? If that’s so, then from a fluff point of view, A and B make sense, but when it comes to the Crunch – I would’ve prefered A and Y
It’s interesting that they did two ships instead of the single ship interceptor pack. Maybe we’ll see a Y only pack and a Dual imperial ship pack down the road? One could only hope.. Tie Advanced and Tie Bomber – in a Bomb’s away pack? that’d be cool.
I actually think it was an inspired choice.
I have no doubt the Y wing will get some love. It IS getting some love via some of the Transport expansion droids, new torpedoes, etc, to be honest.
I find the discussion of “needs” a bit puzzling. Who said the ships in the Aces packs HAD to be ships in dire need of attention? Nobody. And the Transport makes it clear they’re capable of finding ways to slip ships some love in unexpected places.
The B-wing is hot right now – including it in with a revitalized A-wing is a brilliant marketing strategy, if nothing else. It’ll sell copies. Selling copies enables them to make more Aces packs. More Aces packs means more ships getting overhauls.
(Reposted opinions of mine from a certain website)
Keyan is fucking crazy.
-Keyan with Advanced Sensors and Adv Protons
-Target Locks a guy who rammed him
-Drops the stress token and fires his Adv Photon
Alternatively, doing this with Autoblasters.
Not sure about the new A-Wing stuff though. But I don’t think we’ve seen the real big A-Wing pilot yet though. Jake feels a lot like the non-Imperial Guard pilots from the Interceptor Booster, you know: Goodish but not exactly game changing.
Completely unsure about the upgrade cards though.
-Equipment Piece that sets your Skill to 0 in the Activations/Movement phase.
I would like this if it was optional. But it HAS to be used is the problem, so I can’t turn it off when I need it off.
-A-Wing upgrade that gives an Elite Slot, but not if your Skill 1.
Arnvel Cryned! THIS UPGRADE! IT WAS MADE FOR YOU!
-Lose your Missiles for free points
Retarded. The A-Wing is nothing but an annoyance without it’s missiles. Green Pilot – Deadeye – Concs/Clusters is a great little combo that always gets a kill for me and I don’t think I’d ever want that gone.
Fortunately the Aces Police aren’t coming to take away your Green + Deadeye + Clusters. If you like it and it works for you, nothing has to change about it.
And it looks like there is another missile or torpedo in the package! Wonder which – A wing or B-wing. There are already more missiles than torps, can anyone read anything on it?
The icon in the lower left of the card is definitely the skinny, pointy missile rather than the short, cone-shaped torpedo. It’s definitely designed for the A-wing.
Meet the new and improved Slap Fight:
40 ORS w/ Gunner + Engine + C3P0 + MF
60 (x4) Prototype w/ Refit
Meet the new Green Machine:
100 (x5) Green w/ PTL + Refit
Enhanced Scopes would have been great for Arvel. Not sure why they made that card a Systems Upgrade instead of a Ship Upgrade; is there any great use for that on B-wing, or does this go with another ship?
What do you add to PTL with Prototype Veteran? Deadeye? VI? AdRush? Daredevil? Marksmanship to ramp a Cluster Missile? I have no idea.
Crew slot for B-wing is interesting. Chewbacca to guard an HLC ship isn’t too bad. This opens up FCS + Gunner for B-wing as well. C3P0 will be great on B-wing. Lots of options for the B-wing.
Sensor Jammer + C3P0 on B-Wing, woah
Are the rules for C3P0 confirmed? I could’ve sworn it was a fake!
part of the corvette preview I think?
Yah, I totally called enhanced scopes, but yah, I agree, the awing needs this upgrade and its wasted on the Bwing.
The only other use I could think of was Omicron Group Pilot w/ Enhanced scopes and Anti Pursuit Lasers.
Dibs on the new slap fight!
Sensors seems weird on anything that’s already got a low pilot skill – maybe if you need to go before the academy pilots? Not terrible to be able to block with elite pilots though. It would make it easier for players that have a hard time guessing where the opponent will go – you can think in terms of “position of the board now” rather than “position of the board how it will be”.
(will be spoiled as always of course)
(I mean censored*)
+ title that gives a crew
2 shots at 4 dice will crack those soontir token shells
EXCEPT IT DOESN’T TRIGGER if there are tokens
can’t think properly
stop judging me
But that’s why it’s perfect – the first shot strips tokens so you can get four dice on your “real” attack
With Wes helping, that could be pretty good. I actually think I might like PTL better though, to stack TL+roll or TL+boost and then use his ability for the Focus.
Very interesting to me:
Farlander w/ AdvS + Engine (+PTL )
Boost, k-turn, shoot with mock Focus. Rinse and repeat since you aren’t stressed anymore. He’s intelligently angling with a pre-boost so you will pretty much always have a target.
Given the distance you’ll get from targets this way… HLC. Given that will make him a target, Chewbacca or C3P0 and maybe PTL for sure to have roll+boost capability to elude danger even better.
He’ll be a super-ship for those that like them:
49(+title) Farlander w/ AdvS + Engine + Btitle + C3P0 + HLC + PTL
50 Blue w/ Ion Cannon
This comes to mind. Ignore the ion cannons at your peril. Ignore the HLC at your peril. Good luck getting both in arc at the same time. C3P0 laughs at your twin Falcon build; 1 damage for you.
The B-wing wouldn’t have been my first choice for a repaint pack but you gotta admit that it had lackluster pilots.
Keyan Farlander is pretty awesome, with AdvS you could essentially get Focus and Target lock off a K-turn heh.
I’m excited for the -2 points for the A-wing I think its a good thing, as long as FFG doesn’t get carried away with it in the future. Never going to see Missiles on Awings again lol.
And the double EPTs for the Awing is really interesting. Tycho with PTL and Expert Handling? Jake Farrel is pretty good, tho I was hoping the A-wings would get an ability similar to Mithel’s or Backstabbers (Maybe triggering off boost)
Enhanced Scopes would have been great if the Awing could equip it, its wasted on the Bwing. As I said above, the only use I can see is OGP+Scope+APL.
And if Bwings really do get a crew upgrade slot, that is scary.
Farlander’s ability is basically a better version of Fel’s. The free focus can only be used on an attack, but so long as you manage that attack you end the turn stress-free.
I honestly don’t know WTF they’re doing at this point. Jax was the only really inspiring thing in Aces, the others are interesting but a long way from great. But now two in a row, with the Transport pilots and now the Rebel Aces, we get serious WTF abilities for the Rebels.
And seriously, what genius looked at the game and said “You know what we need to do? Encourage people to play more B-wings!”
Feeling a bit discouraged here. I honestly don’t know how this works out. Maybe there’s something in Wave 4 that keeps this evened up, but that just means blatant power creep.
Farlander is entirely offensive, though, and very expensive. He’s going to drop just as fast as any other B-wing, and typically at a much higher cost (base 29 + PTL + Advanced Sensors makes 35). And he’s only on PS7, which means he has the potential to be dropped pretty fast by lists with PS8-9.
I mean, at the same price range you can build Fel so that he’s almost impossible to hit without making special provision to do so. Keyan is a ticking clock; it’s not a question of whether he dies, but of how long it takes your opponent to roll enough dice to kill him.
And seriously – are people playing a lot of B-wings?
Sure – guilty.
Is the meta flooded with expensive, named pilots? Hardly.
Every time the Rebels get an interesting addition the Empire acts like nobody will be using anything but that, ever. Keyan is nasty, but I don’t see him dominating the game any more than Wedge does.
I think people are seriously underestimating Farlander’s potential.
At 36 points you could give him PtL and Engine Upgrade, and he’s Fel in a B-wing. Sure, he won’t be as dodgy, but he’ll be just as mobile, and you won’t have to watch your entire squad collapse because of an unlucky roll.
Look at it this way: Interceptors are generally underwhelming for competitive play. Fel’s ability is awesome enough to overcome that. B-wings are spectacular in competitive play. Now you have Fel in a B-wing. And that’s not going to be great?
Maybe some people are misunderstanding where I’m coming from. I do fly mainly Imperial, but I don’t fly swarms. I try and work squads from 3 to 6 at the most. And everything I’m seeing out of the Rebels are pilots that will eat a pair of named TIEs FOR LUNCH. Is Farlander expensive at 29 points? Yeah. Would I take him with PtL and assume he could mop the floor with, say, Mauler and Backstabber? In a heartbeat.
Couple of things.
Ibtisam w/ PTL + Engine already flies like an Interceptor, and a really tough one. I haven’t seen that ship stomping Imperial face the way you imply it would, although I will say that the ship is quite good. I had AdvS on mine to further improve the handling.
Farlander is definitely going to be a step up from Ibtisam positionally, but he’s weaker defensively. They have similar offense levels. I’m really not freaking out so much as excited to see a better positional version of Ibs. He’s going to be great but he’s not what you say. And he can only de-stress when he has a target. That does matter with the B-wing’s limited green moves, at least in his ability to move to flank and come in prior to combat.
Interceptor is “lackluster in timed play” for some because it’s hard to fly. Players get it killed, so it’s wasted points. We have new tools for it now. You can armor it up to survive a mistake, or if you fly it particularly well you have easy TL+F to make it a really hard hitting ship. I’ve run x4 Interceptors and won games in 5-6 turns, lots of times. It’s not too slow a pace for timed play.
You are misrepresenting how swarms win. 2 TIES do not beat 1 ship, almost never. 7 TIES beat 4 ships, a lot. They win by attrition, staying well ahead in numbers. And they typically kill the most dangerous enemy ship early, that’s likely Farlander. You should be comparing 36pt Farlander PTL + Engine to 36pt x3 AP, at any rate. saying “2 named TIES” is basically just pre-killing a TIE for Farlander. Against x3 AP he has a pretty reasonable chance to lose, but I’d expect him to win because the swarm shouldn’t have left him for last.
I can understand why you are upset. You like the TIE Fighter, think that even when you are down to just a couple vs a healthy enemy ship you should be at 50/50 odds to win because points in play are even, and don’t care for the Interceptor. The first and last are of course fine and a matter of tastes, but that middle one is unreasonable.
The swarm has an advantage at the start of a game. If you don’t kill them off faster than 2:1, you lose and its ugly. It’s not unreasonable for an AP swarm to be 3-4 vs 1 nearing endgame, and a PS 6 swarm is often 2-3 vs 1 with superior PS vs the final enemy ship. Swarms, even when they are losing the game, often have more points in play than opposing squads until they lose one more ship.
It’s quite reasonable for them to be hopelessly losing by the time points are even. When points are even at low ship count, the swarm has squandered its advantage and deserves to lose. And even then, they don’t ALWAYS lose. They just tend to lose.
Maybe this is just the last straw for me because I’ve heard so much “the sky is falling” lately when it’s clearly not. Farlander is EXCELLENT. But he ain’t anywhere near broken. If you don’t like him, shoot him off the table. He’s AGI 1 and won’t be looking like Soontir very long. Ibtisam makes a better Soontir. Tougher target, good against mass fire. Farlander is closer to Turr, some very free-handed positioning.
I’m not even really sure what to say, because you just wrote a page and a half responding to a bunch of stuff I never even mentioned, much less arguments I made.
Let me try explaining my concerns another way.
We can all agree that action economy is a majorly important part of X-wing, right? Extra actions are good, losing actions is bad. I consider stress as a -1 action in most cases. Using that, let’s look at what the current releases have done:
Jax: Awesome for it, no doubt, inhibits a lot, but mostly against formations.
Cowall, Lorrir, Kanos: Nothing
Rest of Imperial Aces: Nothing
Janson: -1 to opponent
Porkins: +1, though at risk
R3-A2: -1 to opponent
Flechette Torpedo: -1 to opponent
Farlander: +2, and just for fun he bypasses the one new limiter the Imperials got
If we consider action economy important, you really can’t look at that list and not see an imbalance in the recent releases.
One of the reasons the TIE swarm did well is because it was very good on action economy. More ships = more actions, obviously. It’s relatively easy to see possibilities for 3-ship Rebel builds that can match the swarm action-for-action. But where does that leave non-swarm Imperials?
Action economy isn’t everything, of course, but it’s an important element that the Rebels have taken a massive leap forward in without anything even remotely comparable for the Imperials. It’s a disturbing trend, IMHO, especially since several of the new toys inhibit ships that arguably rely on actions for survival.
But R3 A2 stresses yourself as well, so isn’t that minus 1 to both sides?
Why is farlander +2? (I guess you’re counting going from the -1 of the stress to the +1 of the focus?)
Jake is getting his + to movement (via boost or barrel roll). Other than Carnor Jax, We’re seeing damage increase abilities (opportunist, kir kanos, targetting computer), Repositioning abilities (Lorrir, Cowell) , survival (hull upgrade) and swiss army knife (royal guard title)…
These are all things that the Interceptor relies on, high damage to get through enemies, and repositioning for survival. Frankly, Aces still seems very good for the ship it’s designed for.
Oh, and the Generic royal guard with a high P.S. – which is pretty awesome.
I think I tend to agree with Kevin here, in that the Rebels seem to be getting a lot more love than Imps lately…The Imp swarm seems like it’s going to become more prevalent again, which makes me sad. I like playing with bombers and Lambdas, and I think those ships are going to have a tough time holding their own against the new Rebel ships that can k-turn for free and get all kinds of actions. Meanwhile my Lambda with Engine is trying to keep up.
I don’t begrudge the Rebels their awesome new shinies, but I would really love to see some Imperial love. Imperial Aces is great and all, but that was Interceptor love. I’d like some Tie Adv. love, some bomber love, and maybe some lambda love. Oh, and a card that reduces the cost of Boba Fett, or some sort of fix that makes him better or worth his points.
joseph: I consider R3-A2 as a -1 for the opponent because you control it. It’s the same principle as considering PtL a +1 action. And yes, Farlander scores for both removing stress and getting a free action for it.
It’s not perfect math, but I think gets the point across.
Enhanced scopes is exactly the card I was asking for. I mean, moving first, shooting first, how great is that?!
My first thought is like, Shuttle + Enhanced Scopes + Anti-Pursuit Lasers, so you’re always blocking even Academy Pilots.
Can Keyan Farlander discard his stress to change all his eyeballs to hits – even if there are no eyeballs?
Same way Garven can spend his focus to pass it off, even if you doesn’t roll any eyeballs?
Can Kenyan far lander discard 10 stress tokens to do that?
This was the fastest I have gone from “awesome” to “WTF” in a long time, and the first I have been substantially disappointed with an X-wing spoiler.
1. The second ship in Rebel Aces really should have been a Y-wing. I sincerely hope there is something else coming down the pipeline to make me eat those words, but as has been pointed out, we do not need more reason to fly B-wings at the moment.
2. I am not wild about new paint job either. Blue would have been better; give the A-wing green.
3. Keyan’s ability seems excessively powerful. Granted the unique B-wings pilots got good pilot abilities, but this feels above and beyond with no extra point cost.
4. Chaardan Refit. Wiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. Seriously. A negative cost upgrade is fine, but this is basically admitting they frakked up the A-wing’s cost without actually fixing it. With the Z-95 coming, who is going to use it to carry missiles any more? I suppose there might be some space as the cheapest missile/EPT combo *if* Talas do not have EPTs.
5. Prototype Veteran. No intrinsic problem with this one, and it creates a nice little niche for the A-wing. Also cool to finally be able to double up on EPTs in “regular” play, but it pains me that the RZ-1′s title is not a way to get systems. For that, I can only salute your effort’s Hothie. <o
Unfortunately this article has me feeling more deflated than elated, and that should not happen with an X-wing spoiler. My confidence in FFG has taken a hit. It is sad how paltry our issues with Imperial Aces now seem in comparison.
Ug, typos. I wish we could edit our own comments.
I feel ya, but It’s not so bad.
1. Y-Wings needed, B-Wings not.
Agreed. But I bet you FFG will do something for the Y-Wing and the Tie Advanced down the road, not too worried about that. If they addressed the A-Wing, they will those ships too.
2. Bad Paint.
Agreed, the B-wing is fugly. I do like the proto though. They can be repainted if needed however. So no biggie (but then again I paint so i’m biased)
3. Keyan is too powerful.
This is the only EU pilot I recognize. He was from the X-Wing game! Farlander definitely put Ten out of business, but Ten cost too much as it was. Keyan either has to do a red maneuvers only or take Push, which will bring him in at 32 points. That’s not cheap. And B-Wings go down when focus fired.
4. FFG over priced A-Wings
Yes they did. Personally I would have liked FFG to just give A-Wings barrel rolls at their price point but this works too. At least they’re trying to tweak the game in the right direction. I can respect that. Now if the Tie Advanced and Y-Wing get no love, then I’ll eat my words.
5. No Rz-1 system slot sucks
Ya it does, but maybe they have Hothie in the back of their mind? What’s to stop them from releasing a future A-Wing pack, with green repaints and allowing a Rz-1 refit card where you remove your missile slot for an advanced sensor one?
So far FFG has been pretty awesome. I’m gonna give them the benefit of the doubt.
Though – Y-wings are getting indirect love from the new missiles and droids.
With the Z-95 coming, who is going to use it to carry missiles any more? I suppose there might be some space as the cheapest missile/EPT combo *if* Talas do not have EPTs.
The Proton Rockets do look like they have the missile icon, and might represent a reason not to run the Chardaan Refit.
I had read them as “Photon rockets.” Maybe proton makes more sense…
So for upgrades iit looks like we get:
2x Proton Rockets (appears to be a missile, no Heavy Rockets for you)
2x Enhanced Scopes
2x Prototype Veteran
1x Kyle Katarn Crew
1x Jan Ors Crew
2x B-wing/E Titles
2x Chardaan Refit
1x Flipped Missile Card
Can we get some of our “enhance” experts (ahem, Mr. Froggies?) to squint really hard at some of the cards?
From what I can see, Kyle Katarn says something along the lines of:
“After you receive a stress token, ” ” ship, you ” ” ” focus token ” ?
Also, B-wings getting a crew-member slot?! Wow, as others have mentioned I’m not sure the meta, or the game NEEDS more B-wings in play. There’s just so many as is >_<. Chewbacca on any B-wing is going to be just so many hit points to "chew" through, heh.
I do like A-wings getting some love, but I worry about balancing issues when we start to introduce negative point cards, as others have mentioned. I am also concerned about AABBB becoming very very strong competitively. Being able to add 2 FCS to the mix is going to make an already strong squad into something quite deadly.
But in the post-Wave-4 environment, AABBB is competing with ZZBBB–which is slightly worse at blocking, but frees up enough points for Advanced Sensors on all three Blues.
Z95 is slower, lacks boost making it slower still and way more predictable, is PS 2 instead of PS 1 so it’s a way less reliable blocker, and is squishier by a decent margin than a Prototype. You actually will be losing a lot in order to get that spare 6pts. Worth it? Uncertain, which is right where things should be.
In reply to all concerns about negative cards “creating” a balance issue, that’s backward. The retrofit card came into existence to -correct- a balance issue. Any kind of card can be broken. It has nothing to do with whether the cost is negative, and in fact this game could be really cool with negative cost SHIPS.
Imagine a Rebel ship, some kind of no-attack shuttle. It costs -30pts (negative), but if it dies you lose. Would you take it to get +30 extra build points? That likely depends on how easy it was to kill, but my point is that negative cost cards very much -CAN- come into the game and be a boon to it. There’s nothing conceptually flawed with a negative costing. What’s important is that costing is appropriate, whether it be positive or negative.
I am a little surprised to see the B-wing get quite so much attention. X-wing and Y-wing got a few new droids to play with, but nothing like this. We still haven’t seen an X-wing title card (which could mean a second Rebel Aces at some point — maybe an X and a Y?), and it does appear that Y-wing and TIE Advanced will be getting some attention if they gave some to A-wing. So there’s plenty of room for FFG to correct any kind of ship favoritism.
I’d actually really like to see a 1pt title for the X-wing that gave it the boost option. It’s in some ways better with boost than the B-wing because it has longer moves, so it’d be a great way to bring back the generic Rookie/Red X-wing and address the B-wing’s oddly low cost (given what it can do and how tough it is). A few great pilots are no substitute for a great ship in general.
I will say that with the wild fluctuation between good cards (Farlander, Jek, Hobbie, Jax) and awkward-if-not-awful cards (Lorrir, Enhanced Scopes, Opportunist) is making this game 1000x harder for new players to enter. It’s getting much easier to build a terrible squad, especially if you are new.
A negative cost SHIP, really? It would have to be Unique to prevent people from adding infinite points to their squadron…
“We still haven’t seen an X-wing title card (which could mean a second Rebel Aces at some point — maybe an X and a Y?)”
It occurs to me that both of these and the TIE-Advanced and TIE Fighter were the only fighters involved in The Battle for Yavin, and none of them have received an aces booster yet.
Death Star 1 Trench Run expansion/stealth Aces booster anyone?
That would actually be a very good way to do it. Nice.
And in reply to infinite points… yeah, I was definitely thinking unique ship.
I don’t even need to squint on Kyle. It says:
“After you remove a stress token from your ship, you may asign a Focus token to…”
We can’t see the rest. Either you get a Focus token, or you hand one off to another ship. Looking at Chewbacca pilot vs crew, my guess is the first. I think crew will be different than pilot for both the Kyle and Jan abilities, same as Chewie was.
“Once per…” (turn, when a)
“friendly ??…” (ship in Range 1-3)
“performs..” (an action? a green move?)
“would be…” (assigned some kind of)
and I can’t make out the last line.
It’s not not enough for me to make any good guess. Possibly she lets a ship that would be assigned a stress token remove that stress token after a red move. Possibly she does something cool for a ship after it performs a Focus action. No idea.
She’s definitely different than her pilot ability.
My best theory…
Once per turn, when a
friendly ship at range 1-3
performs a maneuver that
would give them a stress
token, you may assign that
ship an extra focus token.
There are 2 things which don’t quite fit though…
1: “…that would **give** them…” doesn’t sound right, nor does it look right. From the image it seems like a “be…”
2: The line lengths mostly match up with the card… Except the last line, which is too short (See mockup: http://i.imgur.com/43hNu9W.jpg )
I’m pretty sure it (the last line) starts with either “ship an extra…” or “ship an evade…”
Maybe something along the lines of :
“Once per turn, when a
friendly ship at range 1-3
performs a maneuver that
would give them a stress
token, you may assign that
ship an evade token as well.”
Although the “…as well” doesn’t feel right.
I think green squadron could also run two EPTs with the title. Nothing springs to mind though, maya be VI and PTL.
That’s 21 points with the -2 And way better than a rookie.
I don’t think it’s “way better” than a rookie. At best it’s a little better than a rookie.
The GSP + VI + PTL ship is incredibly defensive, and one of the best — not inviolable, but very strong — principles of squad-building in X-Wing is “balance your offense and defense.” The Rookie is fairly well balanced … better than the GSP. That’s worth something in most builds.
Way better than a Rookie isn’t all that good, though.
Rookie and Red are actually over-costed right now, and already were even before we saw the A-wing fix. They actually have been since Wave Two, and are tied for most over-costed ship in terms of stats/capabilities (with the Interceptor of all things). There’s a reason B-wing is so popular. It flatly outperforms X-wing in every category except dodging ion control weapons (and similar hit-only effects).
22 for PTL Green was superior to 22 Rookie w/ R2, offensively, defensively, and positionally. The only advantage X-wings have is that they have a 4k and aren’t terrible when blocked, making them easy to drive despite having few options. B-wing’s shorter 2k requires AdvS or a gamble, and Green doesn’t often k-turn. It’s really not much at all, even with the new X-wing stuff in transport these ships haven’t gained much that’s impressive.
The best reason to take a Rookie or Red right now, ease of use aside, is R3-A2 to stress enemy targets.
Now that PTL Green has moved to 20, it’s gotten more questionable. You can add Adrenaline Rush for a 21pt Green that also k-turns (once… but that’s enough to matter), or as you say VI to shoot much earlier than Rookie (where before PS 4 was trumping both).
Interesting to me is actually Deadeye though, in full shrug to the Refit option. Green can now be a 27-28pt PTL missile carrier than doesn’t care about target PS. That to me has its charms — a strong missile delivery ship that converts to a strong dogfighter is rather unique. Z95 can’t do it. TIE Bomber can’t do it.
PTL Green is deceptively offensive. TL and boost access let it play a funny game, where it pushes to Range 1 easily and lands TL+F shots on targets. It does match a Rookie offensively, and can actually outperform one outside of a joust scenario. It’s harder to kill, more mobile, more offensive. It’s just far harder to drive, and that’s the only strike against it.
Y-Wings did have their boosting expansion: it’s called the Rebel Transport. Those droids are just as good on the Y’s as the X’s, if not better. You get the skill droid so Y’s can get EPTs, the stress droid for even more control, and the boost droid for Dutch to abuse.
B’s are as popular as X’s right now, so with the Rebel Transport pilots and droids, and this expansion’s pilots and other upgrades, I expect they’ll stay relatively the same. Put too much crap on a B-Wing, and some 7 TIE Swarm will still cut through it without blinking. Keyan is pretty ridiculous, though!
It does not count until I get new Y-wing pilots.
Ok, haven’t this one being talked about, but:
Tycho Celchu are the only 2 pilots in the game who will be able to equip 2 different Elite pilot talent, with their payments possibly helped with Chardaan Refit
Let’s see what could be put in them:
Tycho Celchu + Prototype Veteran + Push the Limit + Daredevil is my first thought
Tycho Celchu + Push the Limit + Marksmanship + Concussion Missiles for a an extra punchy missile
Jake Farrell – only one that strikes me is Push the Limit + Expose
I actually Like just PTL on Jake. That’s a 25 pt ship after retrofit.
at every turn. Your anti-expose agenda is clear as day.
I hated Expose before it was cool.
PTL and Expert Handling! Turning As into full Interceptors is great, especially for Tycho who doesn’t care much about the stress. My best match of all time involved Tycho with this combo (allowed in one of the published missions), where I was able to have him outmaneuver and single-handedly kill five TIEs. Maybe that was just a fluke but it’s still a fun combo to play.
PTL + Daredevil could work too, or even just good old Swarm Tactics or Squad Leader.
I ran tycho with PTL and daredevil in that mission – it’s crazy fun to be able to come around 225 degrees – just look at all the boost daredevil / daredevil boost positional options…
Lore-wise the Kyle and Jan crew are cool as now they can be in the same ship.
intelligence agent + advanced sensor on b-wings WOAH
I’ve run Intelligence Agent on an AS Dagger before (in the GCW campaign), it was ok, but it just didn’t help too much, you have to do most of the decision making about move prediction when choosing the dial, so having IA wasn’t _that_ useful
Ok then. Intelligence Agent + Enhanced Scopes. Allows an endgame b-wing to have a fighting chance against 2 ships.
So delight! Such space wars!
I’m super excited. More options is always good, and announcing it relatively soon after the Wave 4 announcement is cool. I’m fine with more B-wings because I like them, but more A-wings is my dream! A cheaper Tycho with double EPTs will be great, and Jake Farrell sounds cool especially when comboed with Garven/Kyle/Lando, basically an even better Turr Phennir. Keyan’s ability sounds great, my first thought is Opportunist so he can add extra dice and then immediately remove the stress he just got to boost the same attack.
Q3 probably means September? But you’d think it would be easier to design than Wave 4 so maybe August or even July is possible?
Also, the paint jobs look SICK. Maybe these are just mockups and not representative of the end product, but they look extra detailed and professional in those pictures.
They appear to just be renders, like Attack Wing has been using for a while. Unless they totally change the paint process they won’t look nearly this neat and tidy.
This thought has been eating at me — is Enhanced Scopes rubbish on existing ships? Are we waiting to see a TIE-Fighter or Z-95 blocker type ship with a Systems slot before this card awakens? What ship would that even be? Maybe if we do see my Mark II card for A-wing, Arvel or somebody could run Enchanced Scopes. That would be pretty good.
Most ships in the game now can reposition to avoid arcs, and moving earlier. Going first kind of really sucks unless you are trying to block.
B-wing is a semi-bad ship to try and block with. It is small, and a bit slow. FCS and AdvS are both extremely high potential, so it’s hard to justify filling the slot. FrogScopes comes with B-wing here, but I don’t think that’s where it goes.
Lambda? I could almost see this. Move first and be a big blocker, vs even PS 1 lists. Would you pay 1pt to turn a PS 2 OGP into a PS 0 blocker? Maybe you run Yorr w/ FrogScopes to tank for a PTL Interceptor. I’m not all that keen on not AdvS+Engine Lambdas, but it might not be too bad. Blocking is pretty potent. Still, it doesn’t feel quite right because AdvS+Engine is almost a critical add.
Anybody see this card being any kind of useful on a B-wing? I don’t get it there. Moving first is not a good thing in this game unless you are the blocker, and if you are the blocker AND a B-wing you are probably the target unless there’s something really nasty coming in behind it.
I think if the Refit card was a MODIFICATION, and they did a Systems Upgrade card that took up the missile slot, that would have been a more elegant fix.
Lower ship cost, but can still field missiles if you want. The Scopes would have been awesome on a ps1 Prototype, any model would have gotten good use out of FCS for a bit of a firepower boost. AdvS on Arvel? Or Scopes on him for that matter? Welcome to relevancy, Mister Crynyd, we’ve been expecting you.
I like the A-wing love, but I do think both thematically and for game balance, giving them the choice between missiles and access to system upgrades, and moving the cost reduction to be a Modification made a lot more sense. It is what it is, I guess, an imperfect love is better than no love at all.
Though – as a modification, it does mean you can’t take any other modifications – so no stealth, hull or shield – I guess that’s not terrible though.
wasn’t one of the wave 4 ships revealed to have a sensors slot? Defender or phantom I think?
Phantom has system slot and a crew slot, yes.
E-wing also has the systems slot.
Both of them are expensive, squishy-for-cost dogfighters. Moving first for them would be a death sentence.
If it’s the phantom – maybe it will be awesome with whatever cloaking does?
49+? Farlander w/ AdvS + Engine + PTL + HLC + C3P0 (+ title)
Expensive, but pretty deadly to hard targets and super-agile. Also doesn’t die as fast as a typical small ship, which is good when building them this expensive.
Kevin was concerned that Farlander is too efficient, so I wanted to build Ibtisam similarly and look at the comparison. Sometimes this helps me find signature tactics that the pilot will excel at using or just what build can work.
49+? Ibtisam w/ AdvS + Engine + PTL + HLC + Chewbacca (+title)
I’m not sure how Ibtisam’s ability defensively interacts with C3P0. I believe it’s probably the initial roll, and would be fine. But it’s easy enough to skip that question for now with Chewbacca.
Still pretty agile, but Ibtisam has hard choices to make. To use the k-turn, Ibtisam has to either pre-PTL and use green moves (until post k-turn) or forgo use of PTL the prior turn which also gives up her ability. The former is stronger, so that’s her thing. It makes her tanky compared to Farlander, her ability is shunting some incoming damage. She’s defending that HLC a bit, then getting out of town to take free shots here and there once hurt.
Farlander by comparison doesn’t want to get shot at. He’s squishier than Ibtisam by at least 1 shot, and easily by 2. He will live an die by how well he avoids taking shots, and he’s thankfully pretty good at it. He moves a lot like Ibtisam outside of combat, pre-PTL then green moves so that he’s ready to go when combat starts. But once he has targets to where he can shed stress, he’s all about that k-turn. Like Ibtisam he gets that boost into the k-turn. But while she gets to do it just once, he is looking to k-turn again and again to stay alive. It’s a dangerous game because it leaves him in close proximity to enemy ships and he may not be able to dodge them all.
Farlander is going to be weaker than Ibtisam vs turret ships because he can’t arc dodge them, and vs some Firespray builds that can reposition so he has no out to arc dodge. He’s going to be much weaker to swarms compared to Ibtisam, who can fan arcs a bit and pick him apart early. But he’ll be really nasty as a dogfighter against 4 small builds, slower Firesprays, and a lot of the other dogfighting aces ships like Soontir that can’t turn around so easily. Overall I’m finding him very even with Ibtisam, and they seem similarly hurt by dropping each card in the build.
The ability to k-turn multiple times in a row is becoming a thing for Rebels. Jek can do it. Hobbie can do it. Farlander can do it. Hard to build 2+ of those into the same not-suck list though… you need bodies out there, not just a few cool moves. Possibly Imperials are getting a bit of this too, as it’s been conjectured that Defender’s “new move” might a white k-turn. Should be hard to fit more than one of those in a list as well. It’s an interesting capability to build in. Reasonably powerful. Farlander is the best by a margin here I think. Somebody has to be. Being able to bank your k-turn with a pre-boost gives him options. It’s still pretty possibly to block his k-turn, but less so and he’s pretty dangerous offensively even if you do.
If Farlander tries to impose himself on the meta, the natural replies would be:
– Rebels would move to EH Chewbacca, to rush range and jam his k-turn.
– Rebels would move toward ion weaponry and R3-A2, to shut him off.
(Both of these are happening online already as a reply to Imperial Aces.)
– Imperials would move back to swarms some, off of Bombers/Squints.
– Imperials would back off the Lambda a little, opting for Firespray.
(Both of these are happening too, as a reply to squint-hate from Rebels.)
Honestly the meta is shaped to favor Ibtisam over Farlander atm. That will not mean so much shortly, as I expect Wave 4 to hit the meta over the head with a club to some degree. We have a pair of AGI 3 ships coming in, and ion weapons don’t like those. Rebels are getting a swarm ship, and ion weapons aren’t especially crazy over those either. YT and Firespray are likely to remain popular since Gunner answers AGI 3 well, and both Phantom and Ewing are likely to live and die by positioning. Still I think it will favor Ibtisam. Farlander is really really cool… but he’s not broken.
C-3P0′s ability specifically says the guess count is ‘before modifying dice’, and it’s only used once. I think it has found a home on a B-Wing that wants the passive defense (like Farlander), especially since gunner may be redundant with PTL+FCS on him.
I’m all on board with buzzsaw B-Wings though – Gunner and FCS for all!
The question we’ve been asking, though, is how much is the B-Wing E2 upgrade card going to cost and at what point cost does it push it out of the readily ‘usable’ range? (I think consensus is that at 2 – it will be still seen a lot, 3+ it will be seen rarely)
We have a couple of precedent cards to look to — both Slave-1 title and Royal Guard title add a new slot to their respective ships, are the only cards that do that, and both cost 0. I’m expecting the B-wing title to cost either 0 or 1. A crew slot is more powerful than a ship upgrade or torpedo slot, and they might tag a token 1 on it because of that.
I agree on your worth estimate. At cost 2 there would be some players who wouldn’t consider running it (I might be among that number), and by cost 3 almost nobody would bother with it because no crew is that valuable to B-wing.
Right now the B-wing’s best attribute is what it can do for such low cost. It does build up efficiently too, if you take strong cards for it… but it really doesn’t need it. I’ll be interested to see if crews get used much on B-wing, when they have such competition from cards like cannons and systems.
I take it back. The new “A-wing Test Pilot” title (that was apparently renamed at some point from Prototype Veteran) adds an EPT slot. So three cards to look at, one from the very same box. EPTs are very strong cards some of them, but the title costs 0.
I’m thinking 0 on the B-wing title cost, 1 at the most. Given that B-wing is already pretty hardcore and crew are THE best type of card (imo anyway), betting on cost 1.
I have faith in FFG….. but it is growing less strong.
The Imp Aces and the X-Wings in the Transport are good but not overly so. They also appear to cost the correct amount of points.
Wave four will change alot but the stuff we know still seem to be priced OK (perhaps the E-Wings and Defenders are a bitt too high).
But this is not a good sign. It feels like power creep. Farlander is simply overpowered if his ability can be used even when rolling zero Eyes (like Garven). Give him PTL for the auto Stress, Target Lock and Focus to have one offensive Focus and one Defensive Focus in addition to the Target Lock. He will kill alot of things before he goes down.
If playing rebels I will eb forced to take B-Wings it appears as then I can hurt him back just as hard and would need (generally) more than two ships that focus fire on my ships.
If playing Imperial it’ll be the one thing that always work (and should do so thematically), the TIE SWARM!
What I am afraid it will do is make the Interceptors, Bombers, and Lmabdas less used. The advanced is already dead. So we’ll end up with swarms and Firesprays as the only “useful” imperial ships.
This makes me sad.
I still ahve hope FFG knows what they are doing. Ater seeing the X-Wings in the Transport I believed that FFG was proofed againstr Power Creep but now I’m not o sure.
The reduced cost for A-Wings without misiles is a workable fix and not one I’m overly concerned about but now FFG needs to give the Advanced the same treatment.
Farlander is AGI 1. Defensive Focus won’t help him much. His ability definitely can be used even if he rolls no eyes; there’s no reason to think otherwise, as his language is very clear. It makes him able to k-turn repeatedly, but it doesn’t ramp his damage all that much compared to other TL+F stacking ships. That’s good but it’s not broken. Arguably Hobbie is better because Hobbie is cheap, and he’ll be matching Farlander’s damage. So will Jek. PTL Wedge surpasses it, though he loses ground on the k-turn. Farlander w/ HLC is pretty scary. But expensive too, because you pretty much have to buy AdvS + Engine to make that work or you can get stuck in a Range 1 firefight. Maybe a few brave souls will attempt just PTL+HLC and I wish them luck.
Squints and Lambda are going absolutely nowhere. Y-wing and HWK as counters to B-wing appears secure, and look to be getting new options. A-wing has gotten better now. X-wing too, even aside from new pilots. All ships are fine, I’m just talking about player preferences, hate-squading things they don’t like facing. Some ships will get shelved momentarily to answer things like Farlander, but they come right back out after Farlander gets his come uppins.
Can’t I be allowed to rant just a little bit? Only to get it out of my system?
Then, once I’ve actually thought about it and most importantly played with and againts the new stuff realize that FFG probably did OK.
Theorist, you are probably right and I’m moaning for nothing – but it was nice.
Still looking forward to the future fix for the Advanced…
Shut up and take my space credits.
Having slept on it, I like Chardaan Refit even less. Yes, it addresses the ship’s overcost, but it does so by removing the design space of missile carrying A-wings. Further you need to buy a new expansion to get it (and get it in limited numbers). This effectively makes it an A-wing tax. You have to buy the expansion or you pay a penalty for no benefit. This is different than previous situations with TIE Interceptor/Push the Limit and B-wing/Advanced Sensors. In those cases, your ship got better by spending more points. No Chardaan Refit makes your A-wings more expensive for zero increase in performance. That should not happen in a game like this.
That’s a good point. You are now doing yourself a disservice if you run missile-less A wings without the new upgrade. That DOES feel pretty silly.
At least it looks like you get 2 in the box…
Or maybe even three, since one is flipped over. That’s nice.
Anyone notice they just changed the “Prototype Veteran” card to “A-wing Test Pilot”? You can still see the old title in the full spread. Link to the old version still works.
404 error now. Can anyone remember them changing a previewed card before? I can’t.
Nice catch. The spread and everything is updated now.
They changed one of the B-wing pilots (not Keyan, obviously) overnight, too. Discussion yesterday was it was Palso Thern. Now clearly is not.
Yup. I saved the old images since I still had a window up from yesterday, and you can see the difference.
Yes it also looks like Palso Thern’s ability text had 3 lines while the new pilot has 2 lines for their ability
Oh thank god, I thought I was losing my mind.
New B-wing pilot possibly Nera Dantels?
GSP + Test Pilot + Refit + Expose + Opportunist + Stealth (28)
Throw Jan Ors in the mix, and you’ve got an A-wing that can drop 6 attack dice at range 1…
True, but you’d be better off with a focus instead of that 6th dice, or just simply a harder hitting ship in the first place
If PTL/Opportunist were viable it would make for some nasty missile boats, but you can’t use Opportunist if you have stress, and the refit does’t give them a system like it should … maybe they really decided that missiles were going to be mostly a Z-95 thing from now on. I can’t think of another reason why they made the changes they did!
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