Thoughts on OutManeuver

Outmaneuver is one of the wave 4 cards I thought I’d see more of and hear more about. Give your pilots a Wedge-like ability? Yes please… But the more I poke at it to try to fit it into a list, it just never seems to have a good place. As you need to be […]

Profile photo of thejeff By thejeff On July 23, 2014 Posted In X-Wing Miniatures Game

Outmaneuver is one of the wave 4 cards I thought I’d see more of and hear more about. Give your pilots a Wedge-like ability? Yes please… But the more I poke at it to try to fit it into a list, it just never seems to have a good place. As you need to be outside of the enemy arc, this needs to go on a maneuverable ship: Interceptors would be ideal, but give up PTL, never. For the Imperials, this leaves two places: Phantoms and Firesprays.

  • Echo + ACD + OutManeuver (37) : Echo being Echo has a very good chance of ending up out of arc, with the firepower to make it count.
  • Kath + Outmaneuver + EU + MC (47) : Outmaneuver will work for both of the Spray’s firing arcs, Engines will help get there, and if its range 3, have a free crit. Unfortunately, Kath + EH + MC (42) pts is likely superior due to the barrel roll.

The Rebels have a worse time. BWings? They can arc dodge decently, but for Ibby and Keyan, PTL is a must, and Ten Numb screams Marksman. The Ewings?

  • Corran + Outmaneuver + AS + EU + R2 (46) : Pre-move boost or BR would get him out of arc frequently, but I think Corran + PTL + R7-T1 + AS (44) would do that job better… Pre or post move TL + Boost + PTL Roll seems far more useful.
Unfortunately, I’m not sure Outmaneuver really has its day quite yet, but I think its coming soon… Rebel Aces will open up a sweet spot for this card.
  • Green Sqd + Refit + Test Pilot + PTL + Outmaneuver (23)
  • JakeĀ + Refit + Test Pilot + PTL + Outmaneuver (28)
The Awings are great flank ships, and this makes them even better at it, helping those 2 attack dice stick.
Thoughts?
Jeff
      1. Krassis with hlc and recspec is 46. Similar cost, and the way I fly firesprays, I use rear arc more than the front, so for me, Brath is the better buy.

    1. Too narrow use here to last as a solid spot, but I do like it as a meta-hate build. As long as Falcon w/ C3P0 is seen so heavily, HLC + Outmaneuver is a good combination. That’s Defender AND B-wing pilots, but we don’t have any B-wing pilots that have synergy with that setup. Maybe Farlander could do it, but I like PTL better for him by a lot. Both Defender pilots seem suited to the combo, especially Vessery because his ability ramps HLC damage so well. (Rexler wants a Focus in reserve, conflicting some with HLC. I think he might be better suited to the Ion Cannon.)

      49 Vessery w/ Outmaneuver + HLC + Engine
      51 Boba w/ Outmaneuver + Gunner + Engine

    2. Oddly enough, I’m giving that build a shot with some other cheap, but hopefully potent firepower (an Alpha, Backstabber, and. Mithel) tomorrow night in a small local tourney. I think Predator would be more effective overall build and allow me more use of Brath’s ability, but I thought it would at least be fun to try out in a smaller setting and as a falcon counter.

  1. Aye, I had similar issues with the card. It sounds good but struggles to actually find a niche. Back when I was working on Imdaar Alpha lists, I put it on Vessery a couple times. Defenders do not like the stress from PtL, and his pilot ability generally makes Predator redundant.

  2. Hmm out of currently available ships and upgrades want to say Turr maybe… He’s not going to be out of arc every shot but his ability helps him set up being in a good spot the next turn.

    Curious, for someone like Arvel (once Test Pilot is out) if he crashes head on would he still be considered in their arc just not targetable?

    1. Yes, still in their arc. The only valid final resting position of a ship which attempts to overlap into another is back on the table, in a non-overlapping position. That’s the space where an arc can begin.

    2. The problem with Turr is that he’s great at getting out of a lower PS arc after he’s shot, but needs PTL to reliably get out of arc to begin with.

      Pretty sure Arvel would still be in their arc, just not targetable.

      1. Fair, as a flanker I think it would come in to play a few times in a match but for 28pts I’d rather drop 30 and get PTL Fel.

  3. The reason Outmaneuver struggles for a place is because it’s to large degree a “beatable” card, and beatable multiple ways:

    All you have to do to counter it is aim your arc at the ship carrying Outmaneuver, and voila 3 enemy points are now doing absolutely nothing. This alone makes the card kind of suck on most ships, because there aren’t very many ships that can get themselves out of arc and also aim their arc at you.

    But Outmaneuver can also be severely undermined by just spending your action offensively or positionally, or just taking Evade instead of Focus to defend when you know you are Outmaneuver’s target. This leaves not very many ships in the game that are particularly vulnerable to the card. It’s a niche card, terrible vs a rather large array of targets.

    There are a few places where I think Outmaneuver could operate:

    One is on Echo in a build where her support is also hard to target. When the enemy has no targets, Echo can use Outmaneuver to get past enemy Focus tokens a little more easily. Given Echo’s very large gun, even when the enemy has a shot they might want to reserve Focus for defense to survive Echo’s shot. Outmaneuver undermines that option. Whisper + Echo lists come to mind here. Whisper probably runs VI, but Echo could run Outmaneuver.

    As of Rebel Aces, I think Jake Farrel w/ PTL + Test Pilot will be a good Outmaneuver spot. He’s PS 7, and he needs a bit of firepower given his cost. The build would be something like:

    28 Farrel w/ PTL + Test Pilot + Outmaneuver + Refit
    33 Farrel w/ PTL + Test Pilot + Outmaneuver + ProRocket
    35 Farrel w/ PTL + Test Pilot + Outmaneuver + AssaultM

    You could add Hull/Stealth Upgrade here and get a lot of value out of that buy, I think. It would be well guarded by PTL, especially on the Refit build. There are a lot of good missile options here as well; I just like Assault because Outmaneuver makes it easier to land the shot to get the splash. I don’t like Outmaneuver for the other A-wing pilots, who don’t have Barrel Roll to help get out of enemy arcs. The combination would have to be Expert Handling + Outmaneuver, and I don’t think that works. It’s squishy and the loss of PTL reduces offense more than Outmaneuver helps offense.

    Lastly, any card that reads “inside your firing arc” always lends well to Firespray… especially to Boba Fett w/ Engine, who is very good and putting ships in his rear firing arc while also avoiding shots against himself. You could actually double up here on Outmaneuver, flying Boba and Echo together:

    55 Boba w/ Outmaneuver + Gunner + Engine + Seismic
    44 Echo w/ Outmaneuver + SJ + ACD + Rebel Captive

    That’s all I have for this card.

    1. Theorist, as always a well though out plan with decent squads showing how in theory or in practice, cards or pilots can fit with the current meta.
      I’m posting here because I slightly disagree with everyone’s overuse of Echo – I know the reasons why pilots love to use him, but online and in RL I find Whisper WITHOUT VI is not only better now and his time doesn’t have to wait, it is now.
      In addition your final list regarding Boba and Echo makes me want to post my variant, that includes Whisper instead…

      FETTISHH

      Boba – Slave 1, Outmaneuver, Gunner, Engine & Proton Bomb
      56
      Whisper – Outmaneuver, ACD, FCS, Rebel Captive 44

      With Whispers ABI, I know that through careful use of ACD, I have two uber ships offensively able to destroy super Han builds, any turret mounted squads and have done so several times over. At my local FLGS (where the UK champion resides) my friends discuss that a two ship build is not tournament ready to win… I aim to disprove this idea at next years regionals by flying either the FETTISHH list above or a variant but retaining these two pilots.

      1. Just playing devils advocate here, I in theory like the idea behind your build. What do you do with swarms. They are not going away anytime soon and have the ability to bump lock you down. Also that firespray will not hold up under concentrated fire from a swarm for more than a round sadly.

  4. As a 3 point EPT that ramps offense, Outmaneuver finds itself in stiff competition with Push The Limit, Predator, and Opportunist (for an extra point). If you can deal with stress, PTL is hard to beat. If you want to go stress-free, Predator is a strong choice and hard to argue against as it’s less situational than Outmaneuver.

    I think you’re on the right track with A-wing Test Pilot. A-wings need more offense and stacking offensive EPTs is a good way to do that. Predator + Outmaneuver allows an A-wing to take a good shot off of a K-turn. For named pilots, I’d like to try the already mentioned PTL + Outmaneuver.

  5. Lately I’ve been trying out Boba Fett with either Outmaneuver or Predator. They’ve both done well in some situations and not others.

    I want to understand the statistical difference between the two – it can’t be as simple as -3/8 defense vs. +3/8 offense… Intuitively it seems like Outmaneuver would be best against high-agility targets that you normally have little chance of landing damage on, but I’m not sure if that’s actually backed up by math.

    One thing I noticed is Outmaneuver can be semi-good bait – your opponent probably makes an extra effort to keep that ship in their arc, so a good flanker like Boba can trick them into bad positioning that hopefully your other ships take advantage of. Or at least that’s what I tell myself to feel better about my card effect never triggering.

    1. It’s not as simple at that. Start with:

      Outmaneuver is a 3/8 to 5/8 offense bump; usually 3/8.
      — This can be meaningless if you roll poorly on attack. (Gunner!)
      Predator is a 1/2 to 3/4 offense bump; but TL+F is better.
      — This means less if your target evades all hits. (HLC!)

      If -ALL- of these are true, Outmaneuver is better:
      — you don’t have an offensive Focus
      — your target has a defensive Focus
      — you are not in the target’s firing arc

      All this leads me to the conclusion that Outmaneuver is a dog-fighting card meant mainly for high PS pilots. It’s a way to get a possible good offense bump (5/8 if target has a Focus) while Barrel Rolling and/or Boosting. It’s also a way to get 1+ damage on a target, since the ability to block all your hits is greatly diminished. Even if the average extra damage is lower, there’s a consistency gained here by the lowered AGI ceiling.

  6. Vader + engine + outmaneuver.

    On one hand, theorist has deliberately not mentionned him in his post.

    On the other hand, my idea has engine in it, so theorist is absolutely barred from hating it.

    It is a draw.

    1. Plays like Farrel and has +2 PS, what’s not to love? I could definitely see Outmaneuver on Vader w/ Engine. The only reason I didn’t mention him is that pretty much everything goes well on Vader. He plays reasonably (not quite competitively) with the ept slot EMPTY. Outmaneuver would give him a bit of firepower, which is where he’s sorely lacking.

  7. I like him in that role and was going to mention it, but part of the problem with that build is that as you get more ships in the game, he starts to get priced out.

    Case in point as at 36 points he only a point cheaper than Whisper with ACD and VI and more expensive than Echo with the same loadout.

    You still get his 9 PS and more actions, of course, but he only made appearances in a couple of regional lists prior to the new wave, but maybe outmaneuver will help, but I’d not be surprised if it doesn’t change much.

    1. The main issue with Outmaneuver on a Green is that while going really fast is great at dodging most enemy arcs, it’s not great at dodging the arc of your target. That sort of shenanigan is Barrel Roll’s cup of tea. That’s why I think only Jake Farrel will be able to run Outmaneuver.

      I do almost like PTL + Predator for Greens. That’s some 2 action combination of Boost/Evade/Focus, and then Predator to further ramp your odds. There are times when I want to turtle to defend and still get a decent shot in. Predator could be the tool I need… I’m not sure though.

      1. Personally still don’t think 4 A-wings is enough for a winning build, would rather throw in a 5th. Maybe something like:

        Prototype w/ Refit (15) x2
        Green w/ Refit + PTL (20) x2 (or Pred)
        Jake w/ Refit + PTL + Title + Outmaneuver

        Then you have some PS1 blockers who should be able to split fire and soak up a bit more damage.

      2. Interesting. Maybe I like them both.

        I like the first list’s firepower while also positioning. It looks like a pretty consistent 2 hit result, and vs some lists a lot of 3 hit Range 1 shots. I like the extra bodies in the second list, but not the firepower drop vs harder targets. Attrition is a hard game to run right now. It can win, but it’s much more reliant on warm dice than other tactics.

        The hard question for me with Test Pilot + Predator is that those 3pts at the very least could be Stealth or Hull for the A-wing. Which is better, if you are only buying one? An AGI 3 PTL turtle ship protects Stealth/Hull very well, sometimes taking multiple extra shots to kill because of the upgrade. Predator probably buys you a few extra damage if you live a while. A-wing usually isn’t the primary target early on, so is Predator flatly better?

      3. I think, if you only had one in a list, Pred would just end up being the better choice.

        I wouldn’t shoot at the turtled up A-Wing first when I could shoot something else that I have more chance to hit, if given the choice.